might be void of Nativity scenes for the first time in decades next winter.
Menorahs and posters advocating atheism would be banned, too, under a proposal to outlaw "winter displays" at the seaside park.
The First Amendment prohibits the city from picking and choosing which displays to allow, , according to Santa Monica City Attorney Marsha Jones Moutrie.
The new proposal was floated by the attorney's office in response to December protests by some religious leaders upset by a new lottery system used to determine which groups would get to erect displays at Palisades Park.
They petitioned the City Council to forever save 14 spots of the coveted real estate for the life-size Christmas dioramas after losing full access to the land for the first time in more than 50 years.
The city held a lottery for the first time in 2011 to determine assignment after receiving an unusually high number of requests to erect all sorts of displays.
The Nativity Scenes Committee's name was drawn only three times.
But Moutrie contends that the city can not save spots for any one organization just "because that display has become 'a tradition' or because the organizers are based in Santa Monica."
The Nativity Scenes Committee is a coalition of 13 churches and the Santa Monica Police Officers Association. Its members were bothered that those who walked away from the lottery with a majority of the spaces didn't actually end up using them.
"The Nativity Scenes Committee has no objection to displays anyone else puts up under the rules that disagree with ours ... That is the American way of free speech and fair play," Chairman Hunter Jameson told Patch in December. "The full Nativity Scenes only need one of the two blocks. There is plenty of room for the displays the atheists have put up this year, the Hanukkah menorah, and all 14 Nativity Scenes plus room left over."
Moutrie recommends that the City Council tell organizers to find private land on which to erect their displays instead.
Plus, "operating the lottery system is both time consuming and costly for the City and likely to become increasingly so because applicants have indicated they will 'flood' the lottery process," she continued.
Though displays of any kind on public parks are generally outlawed, the city has made exceptions for the winter ones since 2003.
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These "Judeo-Christian values" you talk about - you keep using these words but I don't think they mean what you think they mean. J-C values are nothing more than theocracy, plain and simple. The lottery system exposed what was wrong with this situation - the sad, oppressed majority Xians didn't get their 14 spaces so booo hoooo! Go cry in the bathroom. The city would be wise to ban all displays and avoid this entanglement with religion. If it's so important to the Xians to have their 14 displays, then put them on PRIVATE land. Simple solution!
Yeah, the person who wants to defend the Constitution, you want sent to China so they'll believe your sky-fairy tale. Ironic or satire?
make sure I conform and agree with those I differ in the future.
And they might just call you on it and respond with actual facts. The Bible is not the birthplace of democracy - it is all about doing things "g*d's way" aka theocracy. Democracy came from the Ancient Greeks. Saying that we have this "J-C heritage" is meaningless - what part of the Bible is written into the Constitution? NOTHING! I urge you to READ it and point out where, if you believe it has any. The FFs did nothing to include any of it and in fact it specifically mentions No Religious Tests (Article VI, paragraph 3 "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.") Despite some of the FFs actually being Xian, they went beyond their religion and created a totally SECULAR document, that would protect the rights of the minority when the majority tried to impose their will on them. Case law, confirmed by the Supreme Court, has upheld the separation of Church and State since the beginning. So the city allowing these displays for years, at the exception of all other religions or philosophies, has allowed an unconstitutional tradition, a tradition that they would be smart to stop. These are facts. Can you dispute them? Your opinion doesn't matter unless it is an informed opinion. Enjoy your free speech - don't expect us to respect an uninformed opinion.
I'll parse your comments one at a time: First you said: "For example, nowhere in my comments did I remotely suggest others don't have a right to their opinion" But earlier you said "Sorry. I didn't mean to take advantage of my freedom of speech. I'll make sure I conform and agree with those I differ in the future." Sounds like you were trying to say that you didn't have a right to an opinion, or were you being merely sarcastic? In fact, my comment of "Enjoy your free speech - don't expect us to respect an uninformed opinion." didn't state you had no right to it, only that others will call you on your uninformed opinions.
Interestingly, the basis for these J-C values is, in fact, the Bible. And do we find democracy in the Bible? No, we find theocracy in the Bible. Or, when you were talking heritage, did you mean our American heritage? Well, American Heritage is not the Bible, it is in the fact that the Founding Fathers fought against tyrants for a democratic SECULAR state, without an established state religion (like England had at the time and still has). The U.S. Constitution is a secular document and has no reference to god(s) or holy books. Don't let me forget that you didn't actually provide any evidence contrary to this in your response.
You said "crimes and wars in the name of religion and in the name of God have wreaked havoc upon civilization. However, it is a historical fact of record that more genocide has been committed in the Godless regimes of Stalin and Mao." Unfortunately for you, the topic of discussion is the Separation of Church and State. Your attempt to change the subject failed, and rightly so. When an article is presented that discusses who killed whom and why (Xian and atheist), then we can go into that. However, to bring this up is very dishonest of you and so I'm throwing your comment back at you: nowhere in MY comments did I remotely suggest Xians killed anyone - why don't you stay on the topic of Church/State Separation? Oh, is it because you have nothing to back up your claims?
You said "But this is not a debate about God's existence." Correct! Why don't you stay on the Church/State Separation topic, then.
You said "Democracy was inspired by the Magna Carta (1215) and the rule of law certainly by the Ten Commandments (not killing, not stealing). Biblical values were essential to the cultural ethic." Magna Carta, good, that is actual info. However, the 10 Commandments? Where are they in our Constitution? I could see, maybe, these few apply to laws we have: 6. Thou shalt not kill 8. Thou shalt not steal 9. Thou shalt not bear false witness But where, specifically, are these following in our Constitution or even our laws? 1. Thou shalt have no other gods 2. No graven images or likenesses 3. Not take the LORD's name in vain 4. Remember the sabbath day 5. Honour thy father and thy mother 7. Thou shalt not commit adultery 10. Thou shalt not covet And, about the 6 (Kill), 8 (Steal) and 9 (False Witness), which of these "commandments" didn't exist BEFORE Moses brought them down from the Mountain?
You said "The "Declaration' itself invokes "inalienable rights endowed by their creator."" Yes, and it's a nice turn of phrase, but you have read it, right? The Declaration of Independence is a letter to King George telling him WHY we were rebelling. And nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it say ANYTHING about the Dec. Funny, if the "creator" was so important to our Founding Fathers, they would have put the guy IN the Constitution. No sign, not even a whiff of the almighty. So, back to the topic of Separation of Church and State. Do you have anything that actually is ON TOPIC?
You said "The intent of those who forged the United State of America was to keep it from becoming a theocracy, but not exclude all religion from the public square." Funny, but the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Which SPECIFICALLY, BY CASE LAW and ALL INTERPRETATIONS of the Constitution MEANS EXACTLY THAT: The government, in all of it's persons, from clerk and postman to senator and president, including public school teachers and city government officials, while doing their job, cannot endorse ANY religion. Private Citizens on the street praying out loud? That is protected. That is the only way religion can be in the public square. The City, acting as a representative of the government, shouldn't have these display areas because that is an endorsement of religion.
You've mis-characterized what I've said, provided barely an actual fact germane to the topic (Magna Carta) and spent most of it demonizing atheists without providing any support for your rationale. Like I said: Your opinion doesn't matter unless it is an informed opinion. And there is no information there. Try again.
Perhaps you should answer my points as it is clear to me that your agenda is the continuation of your religious privilege at the expense of the truth.
You mention that when you moved here from the East you were baffled by the nativity booths and wondered how "the church gets away with taking over civic space with a religious display." I see from you Bio that you are from Brooklyn yet seem unaware of the San Gennaro Festival that has taken place in Little Italy for 86 years. The City of New York blesses it. The City of New York closes down 2 blocks. Booths similar in size to the Nativity booths are placed not along the street.... but directly in the street for a week. San Gennaro is the Patron Saint of Naples and it starts with a celebratory mass held in Most Precious Blood Church. You can't get more religious than that! You keep throwing around terms like "clearly unconstitutional" and "indisputably banned by the U.S. Constitution" but unless you know something that the City Attorneys of Santa Monica and New York don't you need to stop saying that.
Ha Ha... what a joke Patch, what a sad revelation of the poor quality of your contributor.
Meaningless words, because you have had one less day of life, writing just stuff. All with a purpose and destiny that ends only in decay. Sad. Anyway, good night. Tomorrow will be over in 24 hours, and again, one less day of your life.